testing own work

[iceman]

Ihave not yet completed inspection & test course.
Can Istill sign certificate for my own work

[Knipex]

Nearly 100 views and not a single reply?? :?
Yes you can certify your own work is the answer to your question.
There is no legal qualification required in order to do electrical work, only that you are competent.

[iceman]

Nearly 100 views and not a single reply?? :?
Yes you can certify your own work is the answer to your question.
There is no legal qualification required in order to do electrical work, only that you are competent.

thanks for the confirmation, isuspected that this was the case but wanted to be sure before issuing test certificate.

[SparkyTel]

The main thing to consider is that signing the test certificate does place you under considerable legal responsibility, if at a later stage someone is injured and the fault is due to electrical work which you have stated was satisfactory when in fact it was not.

Mind you I'm a school Governor and recently examined in detail our schools electrical report and the glaring errors made by the company which are registered with a couple of the big electrical organisations was "shocking" (parden the pun)

[solo3uk]

This is for Knipex & SparkyTel:

Do you guys mean that Iceman can sign Electrical Installation Certificates and Periodic Inspection Reports without the proper qualifications?. I understood that only Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificates could be signed by a "competent person", till he becomes a member of a recognized body who will assess and give him the go ahead to certify his own work.

As far as I know if you are a "competent person" but have not been approved by a recognized body you can do the work but it has to be checked by an Approved Contractor or an Inspector from Building Control who will decide whether the work is ok and can be certified, or refuse a certificate till the defects are corrected.

Can you please put me right on this one?, as I`m not certifying big jobs till NICEIC approves me.

[Knipex]

Hi Solo,
You are obviously refering to Part P legislation here.
This only applies to domestic dwellings and not with any other sector of the electrical trade, and I will come back to that in a minute.
Qualifications do not make a person competent in carrying out a job, in the same way that passing your driving test does not make you a good driver. It only proves you know the basic technique, and its the experience that makes you competent.
It is possible to obtain full membership to a trade governing body (ie the NICEIC) having only ever worked on domestic installations. To obtain membership you need specific qualifications that are not a legal requirement, but they ask for them so you must have them.
If you now carry out a PIR or do some installation work(as an approved contractor) at a steel factory (having never worked in that enviroment), you would then be classed as NOT competent to do the work.
With regards to Part P, this is a statutory document which means you are breaking the law if you do not abide by it. It does not specify any qualifications to class you as "competent", but does list 3 classes of installer.
1- Where the installer is registered with a competent person registration scheme
2- Where the installer is not registered but qualified to complete BS7671 certificates
3- Where the installer is not qualified to complete BS7671 certificates

If you are in catagory 1 you do not need to notify LABC before carrying out the work, but must notify after (usually through your scheme provider)

If you are in catagory 2 you need to notify in advance (and pay a fee), then send them a copy of the certificate after.

For catagory 3 LABC will appoint an approved contractor to oversee the installation work.
Here is approved document P if you wish to have a look for yourself. Page 11 details what I have mentioned

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upload ... P_2006.pdf (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf)

In reality you may find that your local LABC will just say you need to be a member of the NICEIC in order to do the work, because it relieves them of the responsibility of assessing your qualifications.
One final thing is that periodic inspection reports are not notifyable to LABC, so it would be down to your client as to whether they will accept a certificate from a contractor that is not a member of one of the trade governing bodies, and as far as legalities go you are within your rights to issue one (if you consider yourself "competent")

Regards,

Knipex

[solo3uk]

Thanks for your comprehensive explanation Knipex. I already have a hard copy of Part P which I studied for 2391 and also agree with your definition of a competent person and the difference between domestic and industrial installers, however I`m still puzzled as to why you tell Iceman he can certify his own work when he clearly says he has not completed an Inspection and Testing course.

We have to assume if that is the case then he is not a member of a certification scheme as they will probably ask for that qualification, if that is so then he can only issue a certificate for Minor Work or notify LABC before he carries a Mayor Work and then issue the certificate and I assume you refer to this instance when you tell him he is ok to issue certificates.

That means he is category 2 in your list of installers, but you say there, "2.-Where the installer is not registered but QUALIFIED to complete BS7671 certificates", and as you also say part P doesn`t demand any qualifications only that the person carrying the work is a "competent person", so is Iceman a competent person without the Inspection and Testing qualifications, a crucial part of the Electrical Installation Certificate?.

Who is then QUALIFIED to complete BS7671 certificates if part P doesn`t demand any qualifications but has to be QUALIFIED to complete BS 7671 certificates?...............could you please clarify this situation before I voluntarily walk into an asylum for the mentally deranged?.

Thank you

[Knipex]

You are raising very good questions, that im sure many people will have different views on.
Firstly it is possible to join a scheme without 2391 but you will need to prove your understanding of test, inspection and certification, and im sure they will test you thoroughly. As I understand it 2391 was devised by the NICEIC to allow City & Guilds to assess competence, but I will stand to be corrected here.
You have to remember that the certificate is a declaration of your work, and should comply with BS7671. If it doesnt comply with the regs, and departures are not justified then you have declared yourself incompetent.
Maybe my first post should have said "If you are competent then you can cerify your own work", as I am unaware of Icemans qualifications. I apologise for my missleading remark.
The regards to the question about "Being qualified to fill out BS7671 certificates", if 2391 is not the correct qualification then I would love to know what is

Regards

[Jimbo]

Ok I have read this topic twice and am starting to get confused this is as I understand it: Anyone can complete a BS 7671 certificate you can scan it from the regs book and then issue it, and by law anyone carrying out installation work must issue a completion certificate.The local authority will then at a considerable fee get a competent scheme member to certify the work. You cannot mislead anyone that you are a member of a competent persons scheme.
Next, the minimum qualification for all the schemes is 2381 (16th Edition) but as has been said you will have to prove your ability to fill out the appropriate certificate and demonstrate a basic testing knowledge, should you wish to do PIRs you must then undergo another test that will enable you to issue those certificates. This is with the NIC anyway other schemes may be different. Thirdly :It is possible to obtain full membership to a trade governing body (ie the NICEIC) having only ever worked on domestic installations. NO! its not the NIC has over 30 defined competences you qualify and are tested on what you want to do. If you hold more than 3 defined competences you are deemed a full member.If you are a full member on a defined competences this will automatically give you domestic installer status. Going for a lay down! Regards Jimbo

[Knipex]

Hope you enjoyed your laydown Jimbo :lol:
I was trying to put a message across (and doing it badly) about there being no law that says you need to have a certain qualification to carry out electrical work.
Using the NICEIC was a bad example, because of all the schemes to join I believe they are the only one that has a 2 tier membership. The only point I was trying to make is that credentials alone do not make you competent, you also need to have experience in that particular field.
As you say, notifyng your work to BC costs money so if you need to do it regularly then join a scheme.
I think Solos confusion may be in thinking that "notification" means "asking for permission", as he mentions "being allowed" to carry out work.

Personally, I like the idea of electrical work is being regulated but I think part P is not working. It does not stop cowboys from working, and because legitimate sparks now have higher overheads they have to charge more.

To summarise I dont think any sparky should be discouraged from certifying their work as I regard this as a crime. Failing to notify your work is against the law, but about as serious as parking on a double yellow line. I am sure I read somewhere that they are actually in the same catagory

[Jimbo]

Knipex, agree with all you have said 100% except for one bit:Personally, I like the idea of electrical work is being regulated but I think part P is not working. Part P is in my humble opinion is working, I am heavily involved with it, granted its not as well as I would have hoped but never the less the increase in awareness I see every day from Sparks makes me aware that the majority of Sparks want to learn and given the opportunity will do. Regards Jimbo

[solo3uk]

Many thanks Knipex and Jimbo. I understand better now.

My point is that unless you are a member of a self-certification scheme then, and if you`re self employed, it is more inconvinient and you can lose contracts doing mayor electrical work because then you have to tell the customer that the LABC Inspector will come to check your work, and if not found ok you`ll have to do more work to put it right, and it will cost another £100+, which doesn`t give much confidence to the customer, whereas the certified sparks cand do the job, issue the certificate, collect his fat fee and laugh all the way to the bank. So our aim is to be self certified and that`s why some sparks complain because they can`t pass 2381 & 2391 and therefore can`t certify their work.

Part P says that only in two circumstances there is no need to give prior notification to LABC,( in other words save yourself £100+, plus all the bother), a)- if the person is a competent person registered with an electrical self-certification scheme authorised by the Secretary of State or b)-if the job is Minor Work. However this is a charter for "jobs for the boys", because part P also says that a certificate can ONLY be issued for one`s work and not to cover somebody else`s work, but what the hell is the LABC Inspector doing when it comes to inspect one`s work but inspecting somebody else`s work?, what is special about those inspectors?.............

It is true a competent person doesn`t need to pass any examination, however if one is competent by definition should be able to pass 2381 & 2391, because those exams test you on knowledge of how to do your work and if you can`t answer the questions is because you haven`t been doing your job properly as per regs and therefore you are not competent. So nowadays knowledge of how to do the job is as important as experience, above all in dwellings, because the actual physical work is quite simple but to do it properly can be a devil due to the regs.

I also think a good idea to have several levels of membership because it is not the same to work in a dwelling or at Ford`s in Dagenham, (I used to). There one had to design and erect circuits to drive powerful 3 phase machines, not forgetting the eddy currents using ferrous glands on single conductors................

I also congratulate the promoters of this forum because it makes us sparks rake our brains to find solutions to puzzling questions and the best way is by discussion and argument, more or less like in the Houses of Parliament, the only difference is that their members created this mess of regs, discussed it and got about £250.000 a year for doing it..................a nice little earner............

[Knipex]

a certificate can ONLY be issued for one`s work and not to cover somebody else`s work, but what the hell is the LABC Inspector doing when it comes to inspect one`s work but inspecting somebody else`s work?, what is special about those inspectors?

There are only 2 options that I can see here

1) They inspect at first fix, then again before faceplates are put in place. They finally test the circuits and sign the relevent box of a multiple signature EIC. I imagine this choice is the more expensive.

2) They carry out a PIR. But im sure there are plenty of inspectors out there that dish out code 1's "just to be safe". The price of the PIR will be the same pass or fail, and at least with a fail they wont have to take any responsibility.

Im probably just being synical now, because I hate the fact that we are being bullied into joining schemes :)

[SparkyTel]

Have been away a few days so only just read solo's request for clarification. Thankfully it seems Knipex has answered it some detail.

Here is a link to a .pdf copy of wiring matters which has a section about competency which is handy.

http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/WiringMatters/Documents/Issue22/2007_22_spring_wiring_matters__complete_no_adverts .pdf

I also have to agree with several statements in this thread about Part P not being particularly well implemented.

I have a friend who needs a new socket outlet installed in his kitchen and has approached several electrical contractors only to be told that they won't do the work because they are not Part P!!

How is this stamping out the cowboys?

[solo3uk]

Well SparkyTel take advantage of part P and give the cowboys your telephone number................how is that for getting new jobs?........

[SparkyTel]

I would love too :D

Unfortunately I am not an electrician by trade :cry:

[woodleyjkp]

the fact of the matter is, if you are not competent enough to fill in any kind of certificate then you will be hard pressed to guess at it. i agree part p doesnt stop the cowboys but its a start.
what is a competent person? someone who has been to college got a couple of qualifications but has never been on a building site?
or someone who has no electrical qualifications but has worked in the field for say 20-30 years?
or are they both competent?

[solo3uk]

The Regs say a competent person is one with knowledge and experience, but it doesn`t say in what proportion. So if we use percentages for knowledge and experience we can get thousands of combinations to define a competent person. I would say 85% knowledge and 15% experience is quite good and would trust that person more than another with 15% knowledge and 85% experience. However a barrister will say different and therefore will get their man may be by 1% lack of knowledge.

The reason is that the actual electrical work is not difficult at all and within most DIY enthusiasts. What is important is the knowledge of "how" to do the job. So in a dangerous situation, say a building site or farm, water everywhere, I would trust more a person with 100% knowledge of the Regs and no experience at all, than a very experienced person with very little knowledge. After all most arquitects who build skyscrapers can`t put two bricks together but they know how to design buildings because they have the knowledge.

[Jimbo]

The Regs say a competent person is one with knowledge and experience, but it doesn`t say in what proportion. So if we use percentages for knowledge and experience we can get thousands of combinations to define a competent person. I would say 85% knowledge and 15% experience is quite good and would trust that person more than another with 15% knowledge and 85% experience. However a barrister will say different and therefore will get their man may be by 1% lack of knowledge.

The reason is that the actual electrical work is not difficult at all and within most DIY enthusiasts. What is important is the knowledge of "how" to do the job. So in a dangerous situation, say a building site or farm, water everywhere, I would trust more a person with 100% knowledge of the Regs and no experience at all, than a very experienced person with very little knowledge. After all most arquitects who build skyscrapers can`t put two bricks together but they know how to design buildings because they have the knowledge.


Ok Solo3UK, to take this step by step, you are always going to have a percentage of knowledge against experience but what is actually stated is that for Part P you must be competent and the only way to do that is to be approved by a participating body, now I dont know if you are a member of any scheme but proving your competence involves 7 basic tests and the verification of said tests , you need to show at least two jobs and they must have been carried out to the regs with no Majors (faults that are deemed immediately dangerous) If you cannot do that I personally do not think that you should be practicing in the electrical industry, next step, electrical work can in my humble opinion be difficult OK house bashing does not normally pose many problems but in general the work can be difficult, now the problem with DIY is that they may carry out the work and the light/socket may work but is it safe???? is the Zs,IP, RCD protection etc, etc. Ok? I have been involved with accessing people for Part P for 3 years and I am still meeting so called knowledgeable electricians who are not familiar with supplementary bonding, RCD times and TT systems. Finally, granted the architects cant put two bricks together but he can tell anyone how to do it safely, they dont just design buildings they ensure the foundations are adequate, stress loads are met etc, etc
Plus if you think about it how much does the bloke who sticks the bricks together earn against the bloke who tells him how to do it. Many more wine tickets I can tell you. Regards Jimbo

[nikaricka]

Hi,
Just going off track a little.
Part P eh, you can go to Focus DIY and pick up a leaflet telling you how to install you own shower (part p notifiable) no mention of Part P. You can buy everthing you need from them to do the job no mention of (Part P).
How does this get rid of "cowboy" electricians?
Oh that's right it wont because the bloke that owns Focus DIY drinks with the bloke that helped to implement Part P at the Golf course!!!!!!!!!!
Having told the Elctrical Safety Council about this they said, it's upto the home owner to ensure that the work is carried out by a Part P registered electrician. WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!
How many of your clients know about PART P, none!
Consider this, a plumber goes to your mums because she is having problems with her boiler. The plumber says there is a seriouse problem and shuts off the gas supply (condems the supply) This can not be turned back on until a Corgi registered installer certifies that the supply is ok.
Question, does this happen in the electrical trade? NO it bloody well does not.
Electricians do not have the right to condem a supply and tunr it off even if it's un safe.
There are double standards through out the building trades, PART P is no where near being as recognised as CORGI. Untill then Part P does not get my vote.
Oh yeh, if you can't fill out a BS7671 form (and understand what your doing) then you are not competant whether your qualified or not.
Nik.
Rant over, pint of pedigree please. How much! Is it my round next?

[Jimbo]

"Consider this, a plumber goes to your mums because she is having problems with her boiler. The plumber says there is a seriouse problem and shuts off the gas supply (condems the supply) This can not be turned back on until a Corgi registered installer certifies that the supply is ok.
Question, does this happen in the electrical trade? NO it bloody well does not.
Electricians do not have the right to condem a supply and tunr it off even if it's un safe.
There are double standards through out the building trades, PART P is no where near being as recognised as CORGI. Untill then Part P does not get my vote."

NIKARICKA,
Lets just get this into perspective, a plumber cannot work on any gas installation or appliance unless he is CORGI registered, if he is CORGI registered he cannot without the householders permission cut there gas off, he can suggest that the appliance/installation is unsafe and advise that it should be isolated, if they refuse he has (by law) to contact there gas supplier and they will turn up normally very quickly do a drop test , confirm the leak and isolate the house. Then the supply can only be reinstated by a CORGI registered person who has carried out the repair , issued a Gas Safety cert etc. There are not double standards, the CORGI bloke has to be a competent person and the only way to do that is join CORGI at least electricians get a choice, all the difference is that electricians have no power to disconnect supply but if you come across an immediately dangerous situation ie RIDDOR reportable a phone call to the energy supplier will get a man there pretty quick and resolve the problem and possibly disconnect the supply. I agree Part P is not as recognised as CORGI but CORGI has been established since just after Rowen Point, Part P has only been in effect for 4 years.Regards Jimbo. PS A pint of pedigree does seem a good idea, off for one. Cheers.