can i write certificates?

[steven_191]

hello everyone, im Steven, this is my first post on here.

i finished my apprenticeship last year. i took the 2391 test and inspection but unfortunately failed the paper part.

but i have done inspection and testing as part of my apprenticeship so my question is what if any certificates and i entitled to write, and for that matter can i even do any testing?

i been told that undersupervision i can do any testing because im deemed competent, but can i work alone? i know how to inspect and test and have done quite a lot of it recently.

a friend of mine asked if i could do some work for him, but im not sure if i can write a certificate for the work ill be doing.

thanks in advanced

[Jimbo]

Yes you can write certificates from BS7671 (Regs) they have no copyright issues and will not object to you copying the test sheets, you can also obtain BS 7671 software to issue certs, what you cannot do is, lead the customer into believing you are a member of a body of which you are not ie Nic, etc and able to certificate on there forms. Regards Jimbo

[philosopheer]

hello everyone, im Steven, this is my first post on here.

i finished my apprenticeship last year. i took the 2391 test and inspection but unfortunately failed the paper part.

but i have done inspection and testing as part of my apprenticeship so my question is what if any certificates and i entitled to write, and for that matter can i even do any testing?

i been told that undersupervision i can do any testing because im deemed competent, but can i work alone? i know how to inspect and test and have done quite a lot of it recently.

a friend of mine asked if i could do some work for him, but im not sure if i can write a certificate for the work ill be doing.

thanks in advanced

Some organisations would like you to think you cannot but you can.

[steven_191]

so i can use the standard form of certificates for both installation work, and testing? bearing in mind i havent actually got a pass for the 2391?

[Jimbo]

In a word yes, but remember you are signing that the installation is safe and if the **** hits the fan its likely its you they will come looking for. Regards Jimbo

[ringworm29]

hi steve ,
my question is to jimbo about your question.

hi jimbo , if steve signs it off has safe and if he is not part p approved, does he still have to get building control to cetificate his work.

unsure , cheers ringworm29

[nicespark235]

Yes he would as he is not registered with any scheme.

[del]

hi have posted simular topic on here ( newbe) im keen to get the answers as I also want to install elects into a new annexe build ( for our own use) and although I know the latest reuirements and will do excellent job need to get it signed off.. simular situation thanks all ps sparky since 1970 only got the 16th edition. is it hassel getting building control to do test certs ?? :roll:

[Greg]

hi steve ,
my question is to jimbo about your question.

hi jimbo , if steve signs it off has safe and if he is not part p approved, does he still have to get building control to cetificate his work.


Yes he would as he is not registered with any scheme.

Which kind of defeats the object, if you want to sign off your work without the involvement of the local building authority then you would need to be registered. I have been advised that even the NIC have relaxed the need for 2391 on their competant person scheme as long as you can demonstrate on your site visit that you know your stuff.

[cj-sharpy]

I fthe company you work for is Part P registered you can test and certify under them as long as the gaffer deems you competant. So I'm sure for a small fee (a pint or a bacon butty is the norm) he would let you use of their certificates.

[Jimbo]

Seems to be some confusion here, official line is this, You can only undertake electrical work in the UK if you are a member of the competent persons scheme. ie Nic, napit etc. You must carry out all the work yourself or if you have help you must survey the work at all times (you are responsible) on completion the customer has to be issued with a certificate and if its notifiable you have to notify. The customer then gets a notice from building control and its attached to the house documents if the want to sell etc. You may under certain circumstances if your not a member of a competent body notify building control of your intention to carry out electrical work at an address this must be done before you start. When you have completed the work and carried out testing and recorded results you inform building control they send a competent person to check it , charge £150ish and they notify building control. Note to CJ-sharpy for every operative your gaffer uses to test the Nic will charge him £50, I am not sure about other bodies. Regards Jimbo

[bredwin]

Only covers domestic work though does it not? Any idiot is allowed to go mess about with heavy duty 3 phase machinery as long as it isn't in someones house. My boss must have a big bill from the NIC if he has to pay £50 each for all of us to do testing, would explain why my old firm only had two blokes doing testing.

[Jimbo]

Only covers domestic work though does it not?
Yep, Part P is only applicable to domestic work. Regards Jimbo

[Greg]

So I'm sure for a small fee (a pint or a bacon butty is the norm) he would let you use of their certificates. I wouldn't have thought so every certificate is accounted for with the NIC and if it hasn't been registered properly your company risks getting struck off, especially for doing things like that.:?

[Central Scrutinizer]

Seems to be some confusion here, official line is this, You can only undertake electrical work in the UK if you are a member of the competent persons scheme. ie Nic, napit etc.

8O8O8O8O8O8O

didnt know whether to laugh or cry when i read that - i could think of a statement more misguided, wrong and misinformed but i would struggle:D:D

sorry, shouldnt mock:rolleyes:

firstly there are many categories of people that carry out electrical work in the uk - i would assume though that you are discussing installation work specifically

secondly as you mention 'competent persons' schemes i presume you talking specifically about electrical installation work indwellings rather than commercial/ industrial

thirdly if you are, then the statement still doesnt hold true - '0fficially' there are three categories of person under Part P - Category A's are member of competent persons schemes, cat b are qualified to issue BS7671 certs, and cat c are not

ALL Three cat can carry out work in domestic premises, and all must comply with BS7671. Cat C's have to have theeir work inspected a building control (or their nominated reps) Cat B can sign off their own work using building control (although building control may also inspect at their own expense)

for the record, i have been an 'electrician' for over 25 years, and have never been, not ever will be, a member of NICEIC, Napit etc etc:D

[max power]

:cool:where do you people get all this information from because its wrong.NO you cant write a certificate for testing .What you can do is join a electrical council and they will come out and see if your work is safe then you can sign your work off only NOT other peoples work. Thats why you took your 2391 so you can inspect and test other peoples work.You should already know this if you took the course

[Central Scrutinizer]

:cool:where do you people get all this information from because its wrong.NO you cant write a certificate for testing .What you can do is join a electrical council and they will come out and see if your work is safe then you can sign your work off only NOT other peoples work. Thats why you took your 2391 so you can inspect and test other peoples work.You should already know this if you took the course


hhhmmmm.......

now you have me wondering where you get YOUR information from Max;)

To the original poster........if you are talking about 'writing a certificate for testing' then if it is your own work (i.e. initial verification) then you are talking about an EIC accomponied by schedule(s) of inspection and schedule(s) of test results, or an MEIWC for minor works, if you are talking about inspecting/testing exisiting work then you are talking about a Periodic Inspection Report accompaonied by schedules as per the EIC. Not sure what this 'electrical council' that is being mentioned is; I am certainly not a member - but to the point the requirement for the issue of all the certs and accomponied schedules is competence

no-one has to have 2391 to issue a PIR, and you dont need 2392 to do an EIC (2391 is just City and Guilds T&I qual; EAL for example do an equally valid equivalent)

2391 is just a qual to show a measure of your competence, but it carries no 'authority' - dessirable to get a job and prove something to potential employers yes, but a requirement under BS7671 - No.

i have been in (and around) this game for quite a few years - I was carrying out and issuing PIR for probably 15 years plus (easily) before i finally bothered to take 2391 - I was also writing EIC's long before i got my 16th edition - point is i was competent to do so, and thats got nowt to do with NICEIC, Napit, any 'electrical council' or the guy down the pub for the matter

met a guy a while ago who had a big contract with the MOD for doing PIR's on one of their bases- he was member of NAPIT and finally decided (after many years) to do the 2391 - he failed, but was back on the meter the following day writing his PIR's

job done;)

[Bikeelec]

I wouldn't have thought so every certificate is accounted for with the NIC and if it hasn't been registered properly your company risks getting struck off, especially for doing things like that.:?

All of the companies I have worked for have let me use their certs to sign off my own private work. It is very, very common and of course, there is an element of trust (and a fee of £10 - £20 each time). Got busy enough now to join NICmyself so this will cease but believe me, it happens loads.

[robint]

no disrespect to any posters here, but what a crock of psch**tt it all is:p

its a total disgrace and the meddling pc brown nose government has made a mockery of the whole purpose of imrpoving the quality and safety of domestic electrical installations. BTW you never get away with such muddled thinking under industrial/JIB work.

Making the 17th edition into a British Standard was a scandalous act of technical ignorance and political jingoism egged on by certain moneymaking self styled certification bodies. It makes me fume with rage. I believe it was Jumbo Prescott who screwed it all up

[Expector]

Steve; if you found that you did not pass the 2391 written why not sit the exam again and acheive it?
The level of training in inspection and testing contained in the 236/2330 qualifcations is inadequate; hence the 2391.
Unless you have had a good on site training in Inspection test; then you should get more experience before attempting it on your own.
Anyone can undertake electrical installation work; domestic or commercial; notification is required for dwellings (Part P); competence is required for all installations.
The training organization/tutor that delivered the 2391 should be able to give you further guidance on preparation for a resit of the exam; after all they should want you to succeed.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Steve; if you found that you did not pass the 2391 written why not sit the exam again and acheive it?
The level of training in inspection and testing contained in the 236/2330 qualifcations is inadequate; hence the 2391.
Unless you have had a good on site training in Inspection test; then you should get more experience before attempting it on your own.
Anyone can undertake electrical installation work; domestic or commercial; notification is required for dwellings (Part P); competence is required for all installations.
The training organization/tutor that delivered the 2391 should be able to give you further guidance on preparation for a resit of the exam; after all they should want you to succeed.

well said Expector, if at first you dont succeed try, try again
the 2391 has a pass rate hovering about 45%, but that is for people sitting AND re-sitting, for 'first timers' the percentage is much lower (unless you have trained with me:p), so get stuck in and have another pop at it!

[Ted]

Quote; for the record, i have been an 'electrician' for over 25 years, and have never been, not ever will be, a member of NICEIC, Napit etc etc:

Cs, can I ask, If your not a member of one of these rip off organisations how do you go about your daily business with regard to notifying and self certifying assuming you are self employed ?

Ted

[Central Scrutinizer]

Hi Ted,

no, i am not self employed, and am largely off the tools, as i am the manager of a training company, however i still do the odd bit off commercial/industrial, fully tested and certified, and there is no requirement to be a member of any organisation for that, and the odd bit of domestic i still do, if it is notifiable work (and there is more than one way to skin a cat - i use the rules to their absolute limit!) then i just pre-notify through the local authority

to be honest if i do any work, it tends to be PIR,s and of course, that doesnt even come under Part P, let alone NICEIC etc

[Ted]

Hi CS, ok just wondering if there was a loop hole worth exploiting, but I guess for my day to day work I shall have to continue subscribing and paying money for old rope then.

[Bikeelec]

LABC notification is expensive and a con. Mine want £360 per job!

[Banburyman]

Sorry for “hijacking “ this post. I have 2391 qualification, and I am self employed. Do I need to register as a competent person in NICEIC etc, or can I sign the PIR certificate by myself if I want to carry out some electrical job in dwelling?

Regards Robert

[julianm97]

Hello folks I just joinned this forum due to this thread. I was just looking through it as part of my ever increasing training and the 1st answer I see to this question (can i write certificates?) has made me blast all over the place to see how it effects me. Nice one mate!

I am with a governing body. Have level B and C the upgraded to level A part P for the passed 3 years and BS7671-10 17th edition since it 1st came out last year, May 2008. I to failed 2391 due to inexperience in 3 phase but now reading this it turns out that I can do periodics without it !!??

Here's what I have found in the last 10 or so mins on the ecs.org website http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG4_08.pdf page 5 it does not mention any qualification. As someone above mentioned the governing body will make you beleive you need 2391 yet I'm reading from you guys and the esc that we dont.

I now have very good experience in domestics and a little more in 3 phase than last year I'm still studying for 2391 so to never lose touch or forget calculations and formulars, and fit the criterior of BS7671 and the esc page - comipent person, in domestic at least and thats where I work.

So i guess what I am reading about certificates is to download them from the IEE or just buy something like a Kewtech standard book and not use my governing body certs. In short I could almost run my business in 2 sectors. If I want to install yes cert and notify. If I want to PIR cert and file the copy.

If thats the case then thanks to you all for getting this one out there and getting me to dig a little myself. I will still go for 2391 but if I'm ready to inspect then maybe I should start now.

Thanks all.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Sorry for “hijacking “ this post. I have 2391 qualification, and I am self employed. Do I need to register as a competent person in NICEIC etc, or can I sign the PIR certificate by myself if I want to carry out some electrical job in dwelling?

Regards Robert

depends what you mean by 'carrying out some job', if you are doing periodics then it is nothing to do with Part P or any scheme, however if you are doing domestic installation work then part p applies

[Central Scrutinizer]

Hello folks I just joinned this forum due to this thread. I was just looking through it as part of my ever increasing training and the 1st answer I see to this question (can i write certificates?) has made me blast all over the place to see how it effects me. Nice one mate!

I am with a governing body. Have level B and C the upgraded to level A part P for the passed 3 years and BS7671-10 17th edition since it 1st came out last year, May 2008. I to failed 2391 due to inexperience in 3 phase but now reading this it turns out that I can do periodics without it !!??

Here's what I have found in the last 10 or so mins on the ecs.org website http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG4_08.pdf page 5 it does not mention any qualification. As someone above mentioned the governing body will make you beleive you need 2391 yet I'm reading from you guys and the esc that we dont.

I now have very good experience in domestics and a little more in 3 phase than last year I'm still studying for 2391 so to never lose touch or forget calculations and formulars, and fit the criterior of BS7671 and the esc page - comipent person, in domestic at least and thats where I work.

So i guess what I am reading about certificates is to download them from the IEE or just buy something like a Kewtech standard book and not use my governing body certs. In short I could almost run my business in 2 sectors. If I want to install yes cert and notify. If I want to PIR cert and file the copy.

If thats the case then thanks to you all for getting this one out there and getting me to dig a little myself. I will still go for 2391 but if I'm ready to inspect then maybe I should start now.

Thanks all.

well the requirement for doing periodics is competence - a good bench mark i always use with my 2391 students is, if you are going to code something, it means its contravened a regulation, and when challenged, you should be able to quote that regulation

the hardest thing i find is getting people away from best practice or things they prefer to do, to actual contraventions of the regs

example i always give is a shower with no d/p pull switch - my students always say they will code it - but when i challenge them to quote the regulation that has been broken they cant do so (because it doesnt exist!)

if you feel you are competent to do PIR's then do them, but always be prepared to have someone challenge your findings

[julianm97]

Ok Thanks I'll continue as I have been studying and I'll get stuck into the regs book too. I wont do a PIR until I'm 100% sure. I'll also save your responce as a reminder. Cheers.

[Jimbo]

example i always give is a shower with no d/p pull switch - my students always say they will code it - but when i challenge them to quote the regulation that has been broken they cant do so (because it doesnt exist!)
So are you saying ignore this?
Regards Jimbo

[Central Scrutinizer]

erm.....dont you mean COMPETENT, confidence and comeptence are not the same thing........

[Eddie_j]

Interesting thread.
I have a City and Guild 2360. Does this mean I can sign off my own work?
Thanks.

[frazzled & smoking]

If you are registered with a scheme operator (NICEIC NAPIT ECA blah blah):
Do the work test & certificate your work and only your work, if the work is notifiable then register the work via your scheme operator who in turn will register the work with your local building control. Your customer will get a certificate of notification compliance from your scheme operator.

If you are not registered with a scheme operator but do hold electrical qualifications:
If the work is non-notifiable do the work test & certificate.
If the work is notifiable, inform building control that you are wanting to do electrical work & pay the fee. Building control will inspect after first fix & again after 2nd fix. They will test & certificate after second fix, unless you are picked up on any non-compliances with the regs or anything that needs rectification.

If you are home owner/handyman/diyer with no formal quals in the electrical trade:
If the work is non-notifiable do the work (should test & certificate but most diyers wouldnt know how to & most reputable sparks will not cert somebody elses work).
If the work is notifiable, inform building control that you are wanting to do electrical work & pay the fee. Building control will inspect after first fix & again after 2nd fix. They will test & certificate after second fix, unless you are picked up on any non-compliances with the regs or anything that needs rectification.

PIR's:
Should only be undertaken by those who have a sound knowledge of electrical installations & the regulations, & might be a good idea to hold C&G 2391 or the new versions of it.

[Mozza]

Interesting Thread. at the end of the day, Joe Bloggs in the street has been brained washed into only accepting NICEIC certs for electrical works, so he/she will expect one. I think Frazzled is on the money.

[darking]

You can also compile your own certificates complying with the requirements shown in the regs, or copy those from BS7671 but you may not use any certificate implying membership of an accredited body like ECA, NAPIT, NIC, etc..

[quicksilver]

Hi read through all these replies and various websites and im still confused

i have 17th edition 2391 and 2330 level 2 and 3 and an nvq 3 in electical installation and i am thinking of going out on my own

i have software for producing my own certs, what work can i carry out in terms of domestic, commercial and industrial works without joining a body or paying £150 a through

thanks mark

[BDS SUPPLIES]

Hi there mate , please bare in mind that you can get Certificates


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