testing own work

**iceman** · 2nd April 2007, 06:38 PM

Ihave not yet completed inspection & test course.
Can Istill sign certificate for my own work

**Knipex** · 27th April 2007, 10:36 PM

Nearly 100 views and not a single reply??

Yes you can certify your own work is the answer to your question.
There is no legal qualification required in order to do electrical work, only that you are competent.

**iceman** · 29th April 2007, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Knipex

Nearly 100 views and not a single reply??

Yes you can certify your own work is the answer to your question.
There is no legal qualification required in order to do electrical work, only that you are competent.

thanks for the confirmation, isuspected that this was the case but wanted to be sure before issuing test certificate.

**SparkyTel** · 30th April 2007, 09:13 AM

The main thing to consider is that signing the test certificate does place you under considerable legal responsibility, if at a later stage someone is injured and the fault is due to electrical work which you have stated was satisfactory when in fact it was not.

Mind you I'm a school Governor and recently examined in detail our schools electrical report and the glaring errors made by the company which are registered with a couple of the big electrical organisations was "shocking" (parden the pun)

**solo3uk** · 1st May 2007, 08:36 AM

This is for Knipex & SparkyTel:

Do you guys mean that Iceman can sign Electrical Installation Certificates and Periodic Inspection Reports without the proper qualifications?. I understood that only Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificates could be signed by a "competent person", till he becomes a member of a recognized body who will assess and give him the go ahead to certify his own work.

As far as I know if you are a "competent person" but have not been approved by a recognized body you can do the work but it has to be checked by an Approved Contractor or an Inspector from Building Control who will decide whether the work is ok and can be certified, or refuse a certificate till the defects are corrected.

Can you please put me right on this one?, as I`m not certifying big jobs till NICEIC approves me.

**Knipex** · 1st May 2007, 08:33 PM

Hi Solo,
You are obviously refering to Part P legislation here.
This only applies to domestic dwellings and not with any other sector of the electrical trade, and I will come back to that in a minute.
Qualifications do not make a person competent in carrying out a job, in the same way that passing your driving test does not make you a good driver. It only proves you know the basic technique, and its the experience that makes you competent.
It is possible to obtain full membership to a trade governing body (ie the NICEIC) having only ever worked on domestic installations. To obtain membership you need specific qualifications that are not a legal requirement, but they ask for them so you must have them.
If you now carry out a PIR or do some installation work(as an approved contractor) at a steel factory (having never worked in that enviroment), you would then be classed as NOT competent to do the work.
With regards to Part P, this is a statutory document which means you are breaking the law if you do not abide by it. It does not specify any qualifications to class you as "competent", but does list 3 classes of installer.
1- Where the installer is registered with a competent person registration scheme
2- Where the installer is not registered but qualified to complete BS7671 certificates
3- Where the installer is not qualified to complete BS7671 certificates

If you are in catagory 1 you do not need to notify LABC before carrying out the work, but must notify after (usually through your scheme provider)

If you are in catagory 2 you need to notify in advance (and pay a fee), then send them a copy of the certificate after.

For catagory 3 LABC will appoint an approved contractor to oversee the installation work.
Here is approved document P if you wish to have a look for yourself. Page 11 details what I have mentioned

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upload ... P_2006.pdf

In reality you may find that your local LABC will just say you need to be a member of the NICEIC in order to do the work, because it relieves them of the responsibility of assessing your qualifications.
One final thing is that periodic inspection reports are not notifyable to LABC, so it would be down to your client as to whether they will accept a certificate from a contractor that is not a member of one of the trade governing bodies, and as far as legalities go you are within your rights to issue one (if you consider yourself "competent")

Regards,

Knipex

**solo3uk** · 2nd May 2007, 09:28 AM

Thanks for your comprehensive explanation Knipex. I already have a hard copy of Part P which I studied for 2391 and also agree with your definition of a competent person and the difference between domestic and industrial installers, however I`m still puzzled as to why you tell Iceman he can certify his own work when he clearly says he has not completed an Inspection and Testing course.

We have to assume if that is the case then he is not a member of a certification scheme as they will probably ask for that qualification, if that is so then he can only issue a certificate for Minor Work or notify LABC before he carries a Mayor Work and then issue the certificate and I assume you refer to this instance when you tell him he is ok to issue certificates.

That means he is category 2 in your list of installers, but you say there, "2.-Where the installer is not registered but QUALIFIED to complete BS7671 certificates", and as you also say part P doesn`t demand any qualifications only that the person carrying the work is a "competent person", so is Iceman a competent person without the Inspection and Testing qualifications, a crucial part of the Electrical Installation Certificate?.

Who is then QUALIFIED to complete BS7671 certificates if part P doesn`t demand any qualifications but has to be QUALIFIED to complete BS 7671 certificates?...............could you please clarify this situation before I voluntarily walk into an asylum for the mentally deranged?.

Thank you

**Knipex** · 2nd May 2007, 01:17 PM

You are raising very good questions, that im sure many people will have different views on.
Firstly it is possible to join a scheme without 2391 but you will need to prove your understanding of test, inspection and certification, and im sure they will test you thoroughly. As I understand it 2391 was devised by the NICEIC to allow City & Guilds to assess competence, but I will stand to be corrected here.
You have to remember that the certificate is a declaration of your work, and should comply with BS7671. If it doesnt comply with the regs, and departures are not justified then you have declared yourself incompetent.
Maybe my first post should have said "If you are competent then you can cerify your own work", as I am unaware of Icemans qualifications. I apologise for my missleading remark.
The regards to the question about "Being qualified to fill out BS7671 certificates", if 2391 is not the correct qualification then I would love to know what is

Regards

**Jimbo** · 2nd May 2007, 04:30 PM

Ok I have read this topic twice and am starting to get confused this is as I understand it: Anyone can complete a BS 7671 certificate you can scan it from the regs book and then issue it, and by law anyone carrying out installation work must issue a completion certificate.The local authority will then at a considerable fee get a competent scheme member to certify the work. You cannot mislead anyone that you are a member of a competent persons scheme.
Next, the minimum qualification for all the schemes is 2381 (16th Edition) but as has been said you will have to prove your ability to fill out the appropriate certificate and demonstrate a basic testing knowledge, should you wish to do PIRs you must then undergo another test that will enable you to issue those certificates. This is with the NIC anyway other schemes may be different. Thirdly :It is possible to obtain full membership to a trade governing body (ie the NICEIC) having only ever worked on domestic installations. NO! its not the NIC has over 30 defined competences you qualify and are tested on what you want to do. If you hold more than 3 defined competences you are deemed a full member.If you are a full member on a defined competences this will automatically give you domestic installer status. Going for a lay down! Regards Jimbo

**Knipex** · 2nd May 2007, 08:22 PM

Hope you enjoyed your laydown Jimbo

I was trying to put a message across (and doing it badly) about there being no law that says you need to have a certain qualification to carry out electrical work.
Using the NICEIC was a bad example, because of all the schemes to join I believe they are the only one that has a 2 tier membership. The only point I was trying to make is that credentials alone do not make you competent, you also need to have experience in that particular field.
As you say, notifyng your work to BC costs money so if you need to do it regularly then join a scheme.
I think Solos confusion may be in thinking that "notification" means "asking for permission", as he mentions "being allowed" to carry out work.

Personally, I like the idea of electrical work is being regulated but I think part P is not working. It does not stop cowboys from working, and because legitimate sparks now have higher overheads they have to charge more.

To summarise I dont think any sparky should be discouraged from certifying their work as I regard this as a crime. Failing to notify your work is against the law, but about as serious as parking on a double yellow line. I am sure I read somewhere that they are actually in the same catagory