Training ?

[andgreen]

Hi Everyone,
I am a newly qualified Part P (17th edition) electrician. I finished my training in January this year and I reckon I can do most things to do with electrics in a "domestic dwelling".... everything except one .... carrying out a re-wire. I do not come from a building background and have very imited knowledge of how cables are channelled through a house.
The training I received was very good in all but this area.
Does anyone else have the same experience ??

[max power]

you are not a electrician part p means you can only change a existing socket or move one.You cannot add a new circuit or rewire a house or fit a shower,PART P is a rip off to get money out of people.A qualified electrician as to go to college and pass alot of exams. i.e current exams are 2330 level 1& 2 then level 3 if you are good enough then you take a 2392 in testing then a 2391 if you are good enough.plus your 17 edition.Im not taking the mickey out of you but part p takes the mickey out of qualified electricians

[Central Scrutinizer]

you are not a electrician part p means you can only change a existing socket or move one.You cannot add a new circuit or rewire a house or fit a shower,PART P is a rip off to get money out of people.A qualified electrician as to go to college and pass alot of exams. i.e current exams are 2330 level 1& 2 then level 3 if you are good enough then you take a 2392 in testing then a 2391 if you are good enough.plus your 17 edition.Im not taking the mickey out of you but part p takes the mickey out of qualified electricians

erm.....???

why can this chap 'only change an existing socket or move one?' and why cant he 'add a new circuit, rewire a house or fit a shower?'

with respect, the guy did not say he was an electrician, he said he was a 'part p/17th electrician' (which isnt the same thing - well firstly no-one is part p qualified - it is just a building reg - however if the chap has passed his EAL Domestic Installer L2 VRQ and a qualifiaction that references BS7671:2008 then under Part P of the Building Regs 2000 then he is classed as a category B person, that being someone who is qulaified to install, inspect, test and certify, his own work in a domestic premises - and this includes everything up to, and including, a full rewire

whatever you feel about the part p scheme, it doesnt change what this chap is qualified to do - even if he may lack some of the 'building' experience

[The_Wallock]

Hi andgreen

Ok, re-wiring / route finding for cables, this is the bit where you have to get your hands dirty, but it is basically common sense, you will plan the location or will be dictated the location of sockets, switches, ceiling roses, cooker / shower points, etc.

It would then be down to you to look at the most straight forward route for all your cabling taking in to consideration any major obstructions i.e solid walls, this may involve popping a few floor boards to view under floors, most cables will run under floor / above ceilings, being channelled down / up to their respective locations.

There's no short way round it, floor boards will have to come up, joists will have to be drilled through, normally with a 22mm bit. When it comes to walls I would suggest at least 300mm long 22mm masonry bit, giving you enough length to penetrate cavity walls.

It would be beneficial to you if you could start on small amounts of re-wires, such as adding to existing rings / lighting circuits to get use to route finding for your cabling. As you are aware a lot of cabling should or can be run through conduit, just make sure you plan out the most sensible route for these practicably and cosmetically.

One of the worst I have found is running a new 6 or 10mm2 supply to a shower in older properties, you can guarantee the consumer unit will be at the front of the house and the shower will be at the back, if you decide to run the cable all the way through conduit or under the floor, I am certain you will have to drill through a few walls and negotiate changes in floor / ceiling levels to get there. What is worse is routing bloody plumbing, (I hate plumbing)

I know this may not answer your original question exactly but I hope it helps ?

All the best

The_Wallock

[Dobby]

you are not a electrician part p means you can only change a existing socket or move one.You cannot add a new circuit or rewire a house or fit a shower,PART P is a rip off to get money out of people.A qualified electrician as to go to college and pass alot of exams. i.e current exams are 2330 level 1& 2 then level 3 if you are good enough then you take a 2392 in testing then a 2391 if you are good enough.plus your 17 edition.Im not taking the mickey out of you but part p takes the mickey out of qualified electricians

Level 1???? are you taking the micky? Anyone with half a brain could do a level 1!

It starts off at Level 2 which is your part 1. Then level 3 which is your part 2. You then move onto the 2381 (17th edition) and then finally The 2391 Inspection and Testing.

It is now possible to skip the Level 2 (part 1) and go straight for level 3 (part 2)......if you can prove you are of the required intelligence.

I am also sceptical of the Part P "electricians". For I have studied for 3 years completing the 2330 and the 17th Edition and now have to obtain the 2391 plus the Part P to become a fully qualified Domestic Electrician and start my own company....Which is going to burn a deep hole in my pocket.

Everybody should have to follow the same route.....as already stated Part P is a money making scheme and from the evidence of the original poster the bloke doesnt even know how to re-wire a house.......come on how can he be let loose on any customers home!

[frazzled & smoking]

Every property is different when it comes to rewires (more so when loft is converted ).
As said most likely routes are under flooring or in ceiling voids & up inside stud or lave/plaster walls, but dont discount going externally to a building (showers were a classic example given).

22mm holes dont bother.. if the joists are sized ok bang in the max 25mm from word go (that extra 3mm makes a difference), as for cables through holes dont ram the holes full .I was always taught no more than 5 cables through a 25mm hole & take care by feeding into the hole not just pulling through the hole (just pulling will cause chaffing between cables & damage insulation....have seen bared conductors on new installs because of this).

Dont forget separation of circuit bands 1 & 2 IE dont share same route.

As for channeling in cables, on some rewires you will be able to pull new cables in through existing conduit/holes/stud by making bare the cpc on new cable, bare conductor on old cable, cut other conductors back, twist bared conductors together by looping .... pull in new cable by pulling out old cable (takes a bit of practice & is easier with a helping hand).
Other way is use a scutch chisel & club hammer to make chases in plaster, or use the Armeg chasers (Armeg = dusty & messy).

Dont dive straight into rewires they are not as simple as you'd think & take some planning (I tend to do a site visit & determin what the customer wants + add my thoughts that may make life easier for me when doing the rewire).

Hope that helps.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Level 1???? are you taking the micky? Anyone with half a brain could do a level 1!

It starts off at Level 2 which is your part 1. Then level 3 which is your part 2. You then move onto the 2381 (17th edition) and then finally The 2391 Inspection and Testing.

It is now possible to skip the Level 2 (part 1) and go straight for level 3 (part 2)......if you can prove you are of the required intelligence.

I am also sceptical of the Part P "electricians". For I have studied for 3 years completing the 2330 and the 17th Edition and now have to obtain the 2391 plus the Part P to become a fully qualified Domestic Electrician and start my own company....Which is going to burn a deep hole in my pocket.

Everybody should have to follow the same route.....as already stated Part P is a money making scheme and from the evidence of the original poster the bloke doesnt even know how to re-wire a house.......come on how can he be let loose on any customers home!

*whisper whisper* 2381 finished in Jan 08, it is now 2382-10 or 2382-20

*whisper whisper* you dont have to complete the 'Part P' (no such qualification but lets not split hairs) to become a 'fully qualified Domestic Electrician' - you could just complete unit DEI/001 which is 'Applicable Building Regs for Domestic Installations', (through EAL) or C&G 2393 if using the C&G route

And my final whisper - why should everyone follow the same route? After 25 yrs experience, NVQ3, 2 x ONC, HNC, HND, 16th, 17th, 2391, 2377 and I hold a C&G Licentiaship in Electrical Engineering, do you really think I'm gonna sit in college with some spotty oiks on a L2 2330?

I was installing entire installations running off 100kVa gen sets and testing and signing the lot off in the early 80's, maintaining and installing auto-synchronous reaction motors one day and installing lighting circuits the next - however the JIB wont recognise me as an electrician, and no disrepect to yourself, but if i had followed the same route as your run-of-the-mill installation electrician, I would know about one tenth of what i know now

[sparks15]

Central Scrutinizer you are rite, but so is dobby it is wrong that you can walk in to a training room pay x amount of pounds and 10 days later walk out and call your self an electrician. These courses were designed for kitchen fitters who wanted to move a few sockets in a kitchen and sign there own work off. but people are using them to start new careers. They must remember that what they do in someone elses house could potentially, if done wrong, kill people

[Central Scrutinizer]

Central Scrutinizer you are rite, but so is dobby it is wrong that you can walk in to a training room pay x amount of pounds and 10 days later walk out and call your self an electrician. These courses were designed for kitchen fitters who wanted to move a few sockets in a kitchen and sign there own work off. but people are using them to start new careers. They must remember that what they do in someone elses house could potentially, if done wrong, kill people

well they could call themselves an electrican before they do the training - it is not a 'protected' term like Doctor - but they point is they can call themselves ANYTHING, but the acid test is does someone recognize you as that thing? Fact is that a guy who has just done his EAL DEI & 17th is NOT going to walk into ABC Contractors Ltd and get a job as an electrician

And the bit about doing something wrong killing people - that applies regardless what your quals and experience are

These courses are NOT designed for kitchen fitters - they are designed to meet the specific requirements of someone carrying out installations in domestic premises i.a.w Part P of the Building Regs - it would be helpfull if we all accepted the term 'Domestic Installer' as a trade title, which is a quite seperate animal from an 'electrician'

[drumm0]

I'm a bit confused regarding part P.

In th last 4-5 years i've obtained:
-2330 level 1,2,3
-2391 inspection & testing
-17th edition
-couple years house bashing experience

From what i can gather from these threads, someone with just a part P qualification can go self employed and alter existing circuits and install new circiuts and then certify their work. IS THIS TRUE???? If so......

-What advantage do i have after what would seem like a long route for not much more benefit?
-Do i need part P to go self employed even tho its content would prob not include anything different to the papers i already have?
-Do i need a NVQ. What advantage would it be?

Apologies if i'm asking stupid questions.